As I understand it, these French villages are huge money sinks. You buy them, then find that French law requires you maintain them in their original condition. You can't bulldoze them and build modern buildings, and making 15th century French hamlets livable (let alone suitable as a hacker-space) isn't easy.
If you love restoring old buildings, knock yourself out; but otherwise I'd be very careful. Check what the impact of heritage laws is.
And if you dive in the French Law a little bit, you will find out it's far from being entrepreneur-friendly. You will get massively taxed on any profit, and employees' rights are so large that you could be sued if you need to cut down your resources (even if you do on pure economic grounds).
Definitely not a place to build a startup. That's one of the reasons there are no high profile startups in France: there's way too many obstacles, most french people who are serious about creating one usually leave the country.
Edit: oh, and I forgot that, in France, making money on your own, is very badly regarded. You would be assumed to be rich and evil, by default. (I am not inventing anything. Just check french forums/newspapers whenever there are economic news).
1. Government sponsoring startups. That sounds like soviet union. Remember, it's the same government that has a huge debt of thousands of billions of euros? That money won't last forever. It's going to be very expensive to get funds of the market for France, and they will have to cut into the sponsorship sooner or later. Not reliable.
2. It takes a long time to set up a company in France. NOt only the administrative tasks themselves, but getting to know what you need to do takes time prior to take action. It's not straightforward and there is not a single place to go to.
3. High taxes. High taxes are high taxes, no matter what you compare them to. Look at what an employer has to pay to the State before even paying a single employee. It's scary.
4. Talent pool. I don't argue on that point, you can find good people. Just like in every developed country with a relatively efficient education system, by the way.
5. This only mentions the trial period and the time when the employee is under a temporary contract. The situation is very different once that person is under a CDI (unlimited duration contract). Then they can take sick leave whenever they want to, and it will be very difficult to get rid of a non-performing employee. It's a fact.
6. Funny point. Most of those startups are virtually unknown internationally. And Dailymotion was bought over by a semi-public company (Orange), a well known public enemy of innovation and champion of statu quo. For a fact, there's no Twitter, no Facebook, no Google in France. Not even anything close to that.
Yeah, you are right, that says a lot about the startup investment scene in France.
Next time you want to call my claims a FUD, please find better links.
1. Your first point is totally moot ... go check the debt of the United States and we'll talk again. I'm not even talking about your "Soviet union" totally closed political view.
2. I'd argue that it'll take a long time to set up a company anywhere when you don't know the customs of the country. Of course, language is an additional barrier, but I'm pretty sure I'd manage to set up a startup quickier in France than in the US, just because I'm French. Same for you in your own country. Big deal.
3. If you don't understand that the tax system is totally different, and that it means you won't have to make a 401k (I think that the name right ?) and buy your employees social security, I can't do anything for you. Once again, you are very biased towards a very specific type of system.
4. Great that you agree.
5. As it is said, trial periods are standard in any permanent contract, if after 6 months you still don't know that you don't like your employee, I'm sorry, but I can't do anything for you.
6. A point you could make for almost any non-English speaking country.
1. The chief problem with government sponsored startups is - the government is terrible at allocating funds. A scrappy startup with a disruptive plan will not get any funding. A startup with a well presented plan (but entering into a crowded space) will get more funding. If you want to hire engineers, you'll be competing with the government, who can pay more than a small startup, but puts them on useless projects.
2. France ranks 29 on doing business, and 25 on starting a business. Not ideal, but not bad. It takes about a week, in total, if you know your stuff. I don't know much about it, because it's all in French. C'est la vie. http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings.
3. Total tax rate is high. Labor tax is outstandingly high. But salaries are kind of low (because high taxes = low wages).
4. No idea. All countries have talent. You might struggle for people with lots of web startup experience.
5. France's labor law looks a little scary.
6. Yeah.
Overall, the problems are that the government sucks all the good people into its inefficient investments, and that French labor law is more suited to large companies. Its health system is an advantage over the US, for SMEs though - everyone pays about the same amount (through somewhat high income taxes - which is really the employee's problem).
I'm a fan of safety nets, but not of officious labor law.
5. its not about not liking the employee. its about having a financial need to downsize. Lets say you are a consultancy working with a big client that takes lots of hours and several employees. If this big client decides to close the contract you might not be able to bring enough new projects in time to cover. At some stage you will have to fire people or your whole company goes under.
1. The difference with the US is that you also have a lot of powerful private investors you can approach. In France, its all government money and almost nothing else. My point is valid in that regard.
5. That does not solve the problem of flexibility of hiring and firing. If the context becomes unfavorable and your company bleeds money, you will not be able to get rid of some of your workforce easily, so your business will bleed even faster. Its as simple as that, and its not like startups face no competition huh?
6. Totally disagree. Baidu in China. Gree in Japan. I can find other examples if needed.
1. There are also private investors in France ... Are there less than in the US ? Yes for sure, but saying there is none is totally wrong (and I can give you example if necessary).
5. Protection against firing at will is different than not being able to fire at all. It happens everyday, and no, it does not always end up in court.
6. I have no clue what Gree is. Baidu is famous yes, but have you ever used it ? I haven't. It's used exclusively in China.
For the other points, I'm happy to see you didn't find anything to say.
My point is not that some things could nto be better done in France, just that there is a lot of half truth (that's an understatement) lying around.
1. since when "almost nothing" = none ? I never said there was none. There are very few, and I would be very surprised if they are not linked to government agencies somehow. Feel free to provide examples, and also in what projects they invested in. That would be interesting.
5. I did not say it is impossible to fire someone, I said you have to go in great lengths to do so, and you may end up in court as well to justify your actions. This happens more often than not in France. You know the "Prud'hommes", right ?
6. I mentioned high profile startups in the first place. Not used at international level. My aim was to show that there were very few local competitors in France to the Internet giants. Baidu is a clear competitor of Google in China (and larger than Google, anyway). Gree is the number 1 provider of online games in Japan. I could also mention Mixi, a social network in Japan at least as big as Facebook in the country, if not more (while I am not aware of the latest share).
For the other points, I did not answer because I was writing from my phone and could not spend time to answer everything. Anyway, it should be obvious that in France, the PME (small and medium companies) sector is minimal compared to other developped countries. Startup belong in that field, and it is clear that if the climate for small companies was more favorable, there would be more of them. Hence my claim "not the best place to fund a startup" in my original post.
There are probably worse places than France, but clearly better choices outside as well, that's why you have a "fuite des cerveaux" going on for several years: those who are ambitious do not want to deal with useless administrative obstacles. They want to focus on their business, full time.
They got venture capital by Innovacom (not a government agency) and then just got bought by Ubisoft (not a government company).
As for big startups known in France (and not necessarily internationally), well, Meetic is one of them for instance. Or vente-privee.com. I guess you could even put OVH in there.
Chinese startups do well in China because they don't get blocked (as they either have "connections", or just know the rules better), and Chinese is hard for most people to work with.
The same could be said about Japan (while government connections are certainly more critical in China, I reckon). But Google has been pretty successful in Japan, for example. They are now market leaders in search here, whereas it used to be Yahoo Japan still a few years ago (note that Yahoo Japan was a different company than the global Yahoo - they operate separately and are purely local).
> 2. I'd argue that it'll take a long time to set up a company anywhere when you don't know the customs of the country. Of course, language is an additional barrier, but I'm pretty sure I'd manage to set up a startup quickier in France than in the US, just because I'm French. Same for you in your own country. Big deal.
#1 was great. This is a joke right?
You do know the US Treasury is the safest financial instrument in the known universe, right? I'm sure you also know that French debt is denominated in Euros a currency which may or may not exist in 10 years...
Also, even if it does exist they don't fully control the currency.....you know what? this isn't worth debating. This is like a comic performance.
A long time ago, the French decided that quality of life, and taking an easier path was simply more important than the economic, military, and to a lesser extent cultural dominance of the US. As a result, French people live generally better quality of life, but the very ambitious don't get as rewarded as in the US. You will find French of all stripes in the US who seek to live in the US because they can be rewarded more than in France.
It is a cultural choice. But let's not deny the effect.
In France you have 35 hour work-week, siesta, lots of vacations, health care, bloated government. But there is very little entrepreneur ism. The French fell in love with the large corporation and large government.
well, unless of course, you have a periode d’essai (“trial period”) written into the contract (which is the case ~100% of the time), which allows you to let go of an employee with little to no notice for the first three months. Oh, and you can also request to renew the trial period for an additional three months, legally – but you know, if you suddenly hate your employee after six months, well then, buddy, you’re S.O.L.
That actually seems like a huge deal. Most U.S. states are at-will, so you can pretty much fire anyone at any time. I would not want to be stuck in an unforeseen cash flow or retooling situation 8 months in and be unable to do anything about hiring.
Well pretty much every other country in the world does not have US style at-will employment. All it generally means is there is a notice period for employees, on both sides, and you need more justification to fire someone, like their role is no longer needed due to client leaving. For example in the UK notice is usually one month, and it is not hard to fire people, but there are procedures you need to follow. It is entirely workable for startups.
You should not be in a position where a cashflow issue means you cant meet payroll or you will fail anyway.
I would think that it's not about not meeting payroll, it's about competitiveness. If you have to meet a burden that other startups in a different area don't, why would you choose to do business in that area unless you were forced to?
It really is not a significant issue. I have fired quite a number of people with no issues whatsoever, it just requires a small amount of planning, like anything else in running a business. It is simply not a big important difference that you should base business location on for most countries.
I recall reading that the top 25 companies in France were all "old" companies - and looking at the list http://www.economywatch.com/companies/forbes-list/france.htm... you have to look a long way down before you might see a software or computer business.
There may be startups, but there appear to be zero home runs...
I don't know really: most people I know from various social circles see making money as rather cool (extra bonus points if you have fun while doing it).
Well that depends on your social circle then. You can check the press for yourself if you are unaware of the reputation of "patrons"or "capitalistes" in France. They hardly come under a positive light.
That's a very gross approximation of what France is. And I don't see the problem with being sued when cutting down resources if you don't have to and do it only for profit. If it's the only way to save your company you can do it and the law is clear on that.
I am not sure how familiar you are with the situation in France, but very often nowadays the former employees sue you EVEN if you fired them because you were losing money.
Very recently the court has also refused the right to fire employees to a french affiliate of a multinational company, on the basis that, overall, worldwide, the company was still making profit. This, regardless of how healthy the french affiliate was.
So employees sue, the court (as reasonably independent party) checks the books, and decides that you actually had reason to fire them. Sounds like a good trade-off to me (to keep both employers and employees honest).
I don't know the situation in France, but in Germany the Arbeitsgerichte (employment courts) are rather cheap for both parties (unless you opt for the most expensive lawyer around, of course - however that might not help the case that you're really bleeding money).
As for the multinationals and their local branches: For one, I doubt that this court's decision applies universally (case law isn't typical in continental Europe), and even then, we'd have to see the circumstances of the case.
I could imagine that the court found that money was extracted from the french affiliate (eg. using somewhat dubious licensing agreements) with the implied purpose to make the franch branch look weak enough that it can do all kinds of restructuring (such as reducing work force).
With such tight coupling between the two corporations (why should the french affiliate hand over money for nothing if it's not just a branch of the parent Co.?), one can expect that money flows back to aid the affiliate, too.
I am French, live and work in France currently so I am familiar with the situation.
It's true that work-related laws favour a lot the employees over the company and protect them a lot but I really don't see this as a bad thing at all.
Employees cannot slack of all day, endanger the company be fired and still sue you and won tons of money. But you cannot fire half of your company without a really good reason either.
I can understand that it seems strange to someone not working in France but when you've lived with this kind of protection it really is one of the best thing that makes me want to keep working in France.
It would be interesting to see a Kickstarter project devoted to this. It would need to get big fast (Friday deadline to submit an offer), and would need both the $440,000 minimum to purchase the village and ample money on top of that for renovation. It might be a hard sell for people who have no desire or ability to relocate to the village, but I am sure smarter folk than I could think of some sort of angle to generate attention to the project. Perhaps?
And what would you offer to Kickstarter supporters? A week for free in a dead village? A brick from the 13th century church ?
If people left the place there's a clear reason for that. Money is not going to bring back interest in a long-dead location. Unless you make it like a new Las Vegas.
For 1000 dollars a month you would probably get a much better deal in many places around the world, like in South East Asia. You'd get better weather there, too, and decent internet access. Not sure about the visa situation, though, but for sure getting a work visa in France is not easy and takes time.
Admittedly I know nothing of the regulations surrounding such a proposal, but what of some sort of revenue sharing? Donating to the project guarantees you a share in the village's revenue, where your cut is relative to your investment size? I fully understand how crazy of an idea this must sound.
As someone coming from a very small village from the French countryside (probably not too different from the one that is to sell here), it does appeal to me ...
As a matter of fact, I was thinking of just that the other day, coming back in my village in a couple of years and try to start a hackers/startup/"IT" hub ... (maybe just starting with a hackathon or something similar).
You could wonder who would be interested ? And how the locals would react ?
Well, first, you have to imagine being in the countryside, being able to take a bike, roam in the woods, go on the river ... Then there is complete silence (like, really really silent). And of course, the food.
There's also a plan (although I think it's partially on hold right now) to have fiber everywhere. And no doubt that the local administration would help with that if you have a serious projects.
As for the locals, they are very friendly, the only thing they ask is that you take part in the community (for instance, buy at the local bakery or butcher). In the area I come from, there has been a steady stream of Dutch people buying secondary houses for the last 20 years. They all enjoy it, and are very welcome.
Yes, there is a language barrier, but this can definitely be overcome with good will from both sides (I've seen it in action).
See my other comment in the thread: I totally relate to what you wrote - we moved to a very rural place almost 2 years ago and are very happy with this!
Or you could buy a nice building in downtown Detroit and create a startup village for roughly the same price. Enough space people could live in the building and just take the elevator to their office. Maybe something similar to this one:
I've been to that part of France often (my mother lived about an hour outside of Limoges). It's very beautiful. Long straight tree lined roads, sleepy little villages, fields full of sunflowers. Limoges is a good sized town with a small airport (LIG) with flights to the UK and other locations several times a day.
As for a startup haven? Stranger things have happened.
I did not grow up in the area nor my wife, but we have a bit of family around and came here during a couple of years for holidays.
On the startup + girlfriend: I wouldn't try to "convince" but rather see if it would be a good fit. My girlfriend and I are now associates: we're doing remote consulting and bootstrapping https://www.wisecashhq.com. We first gave this a try for one year, to see if things were good for us. After one year we bought a house here, as we were really happy.
On the city: I know some people from big city who do not adapt well, while other (still from big cities) did adapt very well. It's just something to think about then test, planning a rollback if it's not for you.
One important point for us is that apart from the consulting , our business project is really something we work on as a couple.
So now they will describe it as home to 'hackers, thieves, ravers and squatters' :-)
If you go to Berlin, you'll discover many hackers are both also ravers and squatters. If you go to a security conference, you'll find many that are thieves.
I'm sure the people hanging out there are fine. :-)
Why would you set up this hacker haven there if you can do the same thing in a cheap but paradisiac country like Thailand or the Philippines for the same cost?
As a dad, I am personally very happy to pay taxes in exchange for the overall infrastructure (schools, hospitals, roads, doctors, health insurance etc) and (edit) food :) (although I really dig thai food).
I will probably move half-time to such a place though, once my kids have left school :)
Sure, most Westerners can enter the Schengen zone for 90 days visa-free but after that you've either got to leave for another 90 (or is it 180?) or get sponsorship of some sort.
(Obviously this is a rather Amero-centric reply and doesn't apply to other EU citizens)
This reminds me of what I saw recently about Detroit in the US. A number of houses there are up for sale at ridiculously low prices such as 500 dollars or less. When people leave, the land and property basically loses all value.
The $500 houses in Detroit are a bit of a scam. You get the deed to the place and then you get hit with the property taxes. Those places are empty for a reason.
The difference is that the back taxes don't fall on the previous owners, they stay with the property and keep piling up along with penalties, interest and fees. The new buyer has to pay it all.
Once a property "sinks" (becomes worth less than its back taxes), its over.
If you love restoring old buildings, knock yourself out; but otherwise I'd be very careful. Check what the impact of heritage laws is.