After the last election, one smaller local subreddit that has had the same overall culture for many, many years, seemingly overnight, at the snap of some fingers, lurched completely to the extreme opposite direction. If you dare to share any of the same ideas that were once widely accepted there for many years on end, now you instead get absolutely pummeled, ridiculed, downvoted out of existence.
It's just so blatantly, demonstrably, obvious the level of manipulation which was targeted at the sub. Somebody, somewhere, added it to a list of subreddits to be manipulated. But you can't even discuss it there, because how are you going to use a compromised communication channel to communicate about how it's compromised?
The majority of the population seemingly can't even notice that sort of communication manipulation, it's gotten so sophisticated. Bot accounts used to be much easier to detect, now they all have very cleverly built-up account history and posts that are near indistinguishable from humans. And of course not all manipulation is bots/AI, there's coordinated shill/sockpuppet/astroturf campaigns with real people being tasked with doing the manipulation.
The smart people have already left and gone on to the next place, which will never be allowed to grow large enough or significant enough without the propaganda fire hose eventually being turned on it too. The only way to fix things is a radically different framework for communication.
Back to conventional forums with threaded, sequential, discussion? We managed fine for years and well-moderated forums seem to deal with spam/bots better.
I agree with you, and think that if Slashdot were to do a rebirth, it might succeed. Of course, they'd have to figure out what went wrong and put in mechanisms to prevent that.
But the five vote options (insightful, interesting, funny, off-topic, troll) were _useful_. Having a feed based on the score of votes plus friend bonus, friend-of-a-friend bonus, foe penalty, friend-of-a-foe penalty gave me a super news feed I stuck with for almost a decade.
I could see a more complex voting rule set being helpful. But basically, it was really good until it wasn't, and that was a problem of the people behind the scenes there, and not the system itself.
The default sorting on Reddit usually isn’t sequential, and there is no way to track how far you’ve read along the sequence or subthread. In addition, threads get “archived” and you can’t reply anymore. In old-style forums, threads get usually sorted by last activity, meaning that active threads, including resurrected ones, are reliably at the top (sequential by last activity, if you will). On Reddit, orderings like Hot and Best give you some unreliable heuristics, unsuitable for keeping track of current discussions.
Ah, I see, I thought you meant linear within a thread. So you mean some kind of deterministic/transparent sorting (like "most recent activity"). I agree that would improve things.
Virtually all forums (and their ancestral mailing lists) default to chronological order. A good comparison is perhaps the difference between comment-driven and discussion-driven sites, if there's a technical name for that?
HackerNews is comment driven, but does a decent job of facilitating discussions - but not particularly deeply. Reddit is similar. Forums are much more amenable to linear, deep, discussion between a few parties, but can also facilitate comments. Both have their place on the internet, and I don't think that forums are necessarily the answer to everything, but it feels like a lot of people left those communities to end up in Reddit and that's a shame.
Interestingly, old forums rarely supported nested threading. The only "threads" were just linear sequences of posts in a topic. Nested threading is nice but it's also a different cognitive experience that maybe has some downsides as well.
If you reply to an earlier one, the UI will handle it and show a new branch where that conversation started. I'm not a huge fan of typical mailing list web UX and usually view flat, but it's so common that I guess a lot of people like it. My opinion is probably biased from years of using/running forums, so I'm much more used to that UI.
I think newer systems like Discourse will formally track replies to you (versus a new message in the overall thread), while legacy forums like PHPBB usually just quote-reply.
Nested threading for long-running threads only really makes sense when you can manage the “read” status per post (as in Usenet and mailing lists). Otherwise, new “leaves” or subthreads in the thread tree are all over the place, and you don’t know which you’ve already seen/read and which you haven’t. Web forums generally only track a single “water mark” per thread for how far you’ve already read, which more or less implies that only chronological order makes sense. You still have hyperlinked indications of which post is replying to which other post, via quotes.
I meant both posts within a thread and threads within the forum. Reddit makes it hard to track a discussion within a thread and also tracking new threads vs. read threads vs. previously read threads but with new posts, or picking up a half-read thread later on.
Discourse seems to be a modern forum platform that handles a good deal of that. The tricky thing is paying for it, including configuring it and/or paying someone to do that.
Who knew that giving power to unpaid volunteers who don‘t necessarily have the users or the companies‘ best interest in mind might turn out to be a bad business practice.
It's just so blatantly, demonstrably, obvious the level of manipulation which was targeted at the sub. Somebody, somewhere, added it to a list of subreddits to be manipulated. But you can't even discuss it there, because how are you going to use a compromised communication channel to communicate about how it's compromised?
The majority of the population seemingly can't even notice that sort of communication manipulation, it's gotten so sophisticated. Bot accounts used to be much easier to detect, now they all have very cleverly built-up account history and posts that are near indistinguishable from humans. And of course not all manipulation is bots/AI, there's coordinated shill/sockpuppet/astroturf campaigns with real people being tasked with doing the manipulation.
The smart people have already left and gone on to the next place, which will never be allowed to grow large enough or significant enough without the propaganda fire hose eventually being turned on it too. The only way to fix things is a radically different framework for communication.